Happy 81st Birthday Willie Mays

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The other untouchable record of Bonds will be the season he walked 230+ times.

I can see why McGwire took them, his career was headed the wrong direction. Sosa and Bonds were at the peak.
 
Daft
True, but what does that have to do with this discussion? Why did Bonds do so much better than all the other guys on steroids?
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It has everything to do with the discussion. Steroids helped hitters tremendously - particularly sluggers.

It's pretty simple why Bonds did better than the other roid heads. He had more natural talent.

Their career OPS was worse, but their steroid peaks were pretty similar.
 
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Daft
Career OPS:

Sosa - .878

McGuire - .982

Bonds - 1.051



Neither of the two other monsters of the steroid era are within 65 points of Bonds in OPS. That is HUGH. And neither Sosa or McGuire could sniff Barry's glove or base running.


He dominated his era (his era being the very modern era). I don't even like Bonds but the #'s are staggering
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65 points better in OPS is staggering? Let me remind you of something...

Barry Bonds: 1.051
Ted Williams: 1.116

Let me also remind you that it was done without steroids.
 
Totally agree that Williams was an absolute BEAST on offense. The numbers speak for themselves (as they spoke clearly of Bonds' superiority over McGuire and Sosa).

The question is, how much weight do we give to Bonds' glove and base running?

And I understand that you prefer to downplay it but Williams did not face pitchers on steroids.
 
We can't just say:

"Steroids helped hitters".

Steroids helped baseball players who took them.
 
I think we can agree that Williams >>> Ruth
 
Here's an even better look at the effect of steroids on these people's career in terms of OPS. Look at the negative slope of Mantle, Mays, and Williams. That's what you would expect in a career - a slowly declining OPS. For Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Anderson, and Gonzalez, it's magically just the opposite - a positive slope. That means that as they get older, you would expect their OPS to INCREASE. That just defies the laws of nature.

Steroid OPS Regression.jpg
 
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Daft
We can't just say:

"Steroids helped hitters".

Steroids helped baseball players who took them.
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What records were pitchers breaking? I'm showing you regressions where the effects helped hitters. How can the effects of steroids help hitters this tremendously if it helped pitchers even close to the same amount? Quite simply, it's impossible. THESE hitters are facing THOSE pitchers.
 
MonkeyF0cker
Here's an even better look at the effect of steroids on these people's career in terms of OPS. Look at the negative slope of Mantle, Mays, and Williams. That's what you would expect in a career - a slowly declining OPS. For Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Anderson, and Gonzalez, it's magically just the opposite - a positive slope. That means that as they get older, you would expect their OPS to INCREASE. That just defies the laws of nature.

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Sosa didn't play at 36 and his final season was 37. Now look at Bonds from age 37 on, those are just freakish numbers for a 27-32 (the prime age of a hitter). One big unknown is the effect of roids on a pitcher. Many point to Clemens, but one can look at Mark Prior too.
 
Daft
Again, we're talking a different era. That's kind of a big deal.
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And he beat outperformed the other players of his era by a larger margin than Bonds/mays/Williams or anyone else you want to compare.
 
FairWarning
Sosa didn't play at 36 and his final season was 37. Now look at Bonds from age 37 on, those are just freakish numbers for a 27-32 (the prime age of a hitter). One big unknown is the effect of roids on a pitcher. Many point to Clemens, but one can look at Mark Prior too.
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I'd run some regressions on pitchers but I don't have a good stat (like FIP) compiled for most of them. Maybe, I'll whip something up tonight.
 
Daft
I have a problem with a WAR chart that has Williams 12 spots down from Walter Johnson

Common
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I have no idea how they compare the pitchers to hitters.
 
MonkeyF0cker
I'd run some regressions on pitchers but I don't have a good stat (like FIP) compiled for most of them. Maybe, I'll whip something up tonight.
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I'll have to snoop around the SABR boards this week and see how they compare them.
 
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