Happy 81st Birthday Willie Mays

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Should be no need to point it out. You're just wrong.

Williams lost three of his prime years serving in WWII.

1941 - .406 with 37 home runs
1942 - .356 with 36 home runs

1943-1945 enlisted.

Comes back in 1946 and hits .342 with 38 home runs.
 
Mays had ONE year that compares to what Williams did in that span - 1954.
 
Williams was horrible, especially in the early years by many accounts I've read. I don't think many here witnessed either, so who knows.

and yet even dismissing defense, where a ballplayer "plays" 95% of his "game".

and dismissing the differences between center field and left field in general, let alone in fenway vs polo grounds/candlestick.....

there is EVEN MORE to being a ballplayer than hitting and defense.
 
Archie
Williams was horrible, especially in the early years by many accounts I've read. I don't think many here witnessed either, so who knows.

and yet even dismissing defense, where a ballplayer "plays" 95% of his "game".

and dismissing the differences between center field and left field in general, let alone in fenway vs polo grounds/candlestick.....

there is EVEN MORE to being a ballplayer than hitting and defense.
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You mean speed? Guess that says how much of a better hitter the guy was than Mays. He was slow and still hit .400.

Leadership maybe? I'd bet Williams had more command in the clubhouse than Mays.
 
Williams also missed time for the Korea War.

Archie, if 95% of the game is defense, then Vizquel is the greatest player ever.
 
And as far as stolen bases go, I'd rather have a guy with almost no stolen bases and an OBP of .482 than a guy with an OBP of .384 and a stolen base every 4-5 games.

Which do you think generates more runs? After all, stolen bases are only important for scoring opportunity.
 
Williams was a prick to the media, and never really was all that outgoing with the Boston fans.

I think this hurt his legacy a bit, some of the media really hated on him.
 
I think some might be missing the semantics.

Ted Williams was the greatest hitter. I'd take arguments on Babe Ruth being close.

But there are many facets to being a "ballplayer" and its not just tools like "speed" but in using natural talents and skills with brains to be a ball player. Mays was fast, but he was also a great baserunner, they aren't the same thing.

Being a hitter is like 70-80% of what being a ball player is. I don't weigh all the aspects of a ball player's package equally.

its semantical in nature.

interesting further thought though, if you include the pitching aspect. Ruth has to be the greatest ever.
 
What Ruth did is hard to compare to modern era players. He pitched and swung a tree trunk. He's sort of in a league of his own.
 
MonkeyF0cker
Should be no need to point it out. You're just wrong.

Williams lost three of his prime years serving in WWII.

1941 - .406 with 37 home runs
1942 - .356 with 36 home runs

1943-1945 enlisted.

Comes back in 1946 and hits .342 with 38 home runs.
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I've been to busy to get back to this thread but are we really going to use batting average to bolster our picks for the greatest ever?


If anyone was better than Mays, it's Bonds.

Yeah yeah yeah steroidslol but he played in the steroid era.

Take a look at Bonds' career OPS and he was never a defensive liability and was a great base runner
 
Daft
I've been to busy to get back to this thread but are we really going to use batting average to bolster our picks for the greatest ever?


If anyone was better than Mays, it's Bonds.

Yeah yeah yeah steroidslol but he played in the steroid era.

Take a look at Bonds' career OPS and he was never a defensive liability and was a great base runner
Click to expand...

You're correct, the standard is WAR. According to Baseball Reference, Ruth still is 1st, Bonds 2nd, Mays 3rd. Ill post more with links when I get home.
 
MikeZB
From what little I've seen in person and what I've heard, Willie probably is bitter. But I don't think it's because of Jim Crow days.
My guess is that it has to do with having been paid little compared to players today, even though they have nowhere near his ability.
He also lost a couple of prime years to the Army and played in a horrible ballpark--Candlestick--with the wind almost always blowing in from left. He could have easily hit another 100 home runs if it were not for those things
I also suspect that as respected and loved as he is, he doesn't believe his greatness is fully recognized. San Francisco considered him a New York player and never fully embraced him when he was an active player. And toward the end of Mays' career, Joe DiMaggio was voted the greatest living player by baseball writers.
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Mike, stay with us! I'm thinking your a Bay area guy! Some support here to your post! :up:

Candlestick Park had its origins in the shady dealings that induced the New York Giants to move to the West Coast in 1958. A cunning developer named Charles Harney got the mayor of San Francisco to offer the Giants a large plot of rocky land on the San Francisco Bay for a new stadium with plenty of parking space, but he failed to inform the mayor or the Giants' officials of the fierce winds and chilly night temperatures that plague that area.

Candlestick Park became the object of ridicule and scorn after the horrendous winds blew Giants' pitcher Stu Miller off the mound during the 1961 All-Star Game. (Some people dispute that story.) In part because the windy conditions were not amenable to home runs, the outfield fence was moved inward one year after this stadium opened, reducing the distance in the power alleys by 20-30 feet.

Even so, this ballpark remained very unfavorable to batters, and probably reduced the lifetime home run record of Giants' slugger Willie Mays by at least a hundred. (At 660, he fell short of both Babe Ruth's 714 and Hank Aaron's 755 totals.) Because of the chilly, windy evenings at Candlestick, the Giants played most of their games during the day, even as most other teams shifted to mostly-night schedules during the 1970s.
 
Daft
I've been to busy to get back to this thread but are we really going to use batting average to bolster our picks for the greatest ever?


If anyone was better than Mays, it's Bonds.

Yeah yeah yeah steroidslol but he played in the steroid era.

Take a look at Bonds' career OPS and he was never a defensive liability and was a great base runner
Click to expand...

Uhh. LOL. Maybe you don't know what OPS stands for. Great point. Let's take a look at OPS.

Career OPS:

Willie Mays: .941
Barry Bonds: 1.051
Ted Williams: 1.116
 
FairWarning
You're correct, the standard is WAR. According to Baseball Reference, Ruth still is 1st, Bonds 2nd, Mays 3rd. Ill post more with links when I get home.
Click to expand...

Yes, WAR is typically the standard. Unfortunately, a war interrupted three prime years of Ted Williams' WAR.

1941 - 10.1
1942 - 10.2
1943-1945 - Enlisted
1946 - 10.6
 
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