The WWIII Thread

Tron

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Like @Tron , you've said this situation is more complicated than USA lets on, Ukraine isn't faultless, etc.

Let's say that's all true, to an extreme. That Putin legitimately had no choice but to take military action against Ukraine as they were a legitimate threat to Russia. They instigated, had this war coming,
I don’t feel great saying this, but, I’m skeptical that civilians are purposely being targeted by Putin.

*I’m aware that some major news outlets are reporting that this in fact taking place.
 
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Tron

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62E37160-DFB2-4B47-AA75-98F6D654F6FC.jpeg

Makes you wonder if the United States would feel threatened if the roles were reversed
 
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Vegas Dave

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I don’t feel great saying this, but, I’m skeptical that civilians are purposely being targeted by Putin.

*I’m aware that some major news outlets are reporting that this in fact taking place.
Yeah... you are right not to feel great saying that. That's quite a leap of faith.

I mean I agree the media isn't pulling any punches. Like the coverage on PUTIN BOMBS CHILDRENS HOSPITAL, I certainly don't think Putin was *targeting* a children's hospital.

...but I'm not sure he gives much of a shit, either. Would be quite the conspiracy and cover up if all of these videos, news reports, AND first hand accounts (both Russian and Ukranian) of civilian areas being bombed were all fake.
 

Tron

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I think it’s not unreasonable to say that, in most wars, there are inadvertent civilian causalities. Including wars the United States has instigated.
 

Vegas Dave

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I think it’s not unreasonable to say that, in most wars, there are inadvertent civilian causalities. Including wars the United States has instigated.
Back to the "USA does it too" line, huh?

I fully fucking denounce any deliberate attacks on civilians the United States have committed. I have no clue how many or how few of these attacks they've carried out.

What I do know is that here in 2022 with technology and reporting being what it is, we KNOW that bombs are being dropped by Russia that are hitting schools, hospitals and nurseries (https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1113782). These aren't strategic attacks on opponent's military bases or high-ranking officials where innocent lives are caught in the crossfire as collateral damage. These are wide area of effect bombs being dropped directly on civilian neighborhoods.

I mean you do you, but again, regardless of how you feel about the Russia/Ukraine conflict, as a human being you should be really pissed off and upset about the war crimes being committed by Putin. And if you aren't, you should reconsider.
 

Tron

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I think it’s not unreasonable to say that, in most wars, there are inadvertent civilian causalities.
I’m ok wording it this way if it will keep you from focusing on my “whataboutism”.

Is my quoted statement reasonable or no?
 

Vegas Dave

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I’m ok wording it this way if it will keep you from focusing on my “whataboutism”.

Is my quoted statement reasonable or no?
Of course it is. I just don't think that's what's happening here. You do?
 

Tron

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here’s what I know:

-Russia is the clear aggressor

-there are hundreds of thousands of refugees and tens of thousands of deaths because of one man’s ego

And it’s all awful. And the human suffering could get substantially worse if the United States issues a no-fly zone or sends American troops into Ukraine.

Here’s what I I don’t know for sure (and neither do you):

-That Russia is intentionally murdering Ukrainian citizens.

-that the rapid expansion of NATO since the mid 90’s has contributed to the Russian invasion

:handshake:
 

Vegas Dave

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here’s what I know:

-Russia is the clear aggressor

-there are hundreds of thousands of refugees and tens of thousands of deaths because of one man’s ego

And it’s all awful. And the human suffering could get substantially worse if the United States issues a no-fly zone or sends American troops into Ukraine.

Here’s what I I don’t know for sure (and neither do you):

-That Russia is intentionally murdering Ukrainian citizens.

-that the rapid expansion of NATO since the mid 90’s has contributed to the Russian invasion

:handshake:
No, I don't know for sure.

But there's overwhelming photographic evidence and reports from legitimate news sources on civilian buildings being attacked. At best, perhaps you could say that as opposed to intentionally murdering/targeting citizens, Russia is "just" exercising great negligence dropping dumb bombs that are hard to aim in and around these areas without much worry about civilian lives. But using logic here, with hospitals and schools and non-military civilian areas being attacked, you think it's more likely that these were all strategic attacks and accidents than intentional?

And then you have this wishy-washy thing going on where you are talking shit about Zelensky "calling shots", bringing up NATO expansion as a potential justification for this war, without just outright coming out and saying you support it. Playing both sides of the fence, I guess?

Weird hill you are standing on. But again, you do you.
 

Matty

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The main thing is that Putin doesn't consider Ukraine a real country. I believe his ultimate goal would be to have the whole Soviet block back under one flag. Ukraine is more pressing because of its strategic location, its ports and probably some other reasons.

That makes the whole thing a lot more chilling - he's destroying and killing what he feels is his own.

Say what you want about Americans and Canadians, but at the end of the day we mostly just yell at each other and use fairly subtle election fraud methods to pull the blanket our side.

This guy is a loon and needs to meet a bullet before he does something truly evil.

His latest speech has hints of actual Nazism in it, although I'll concede that the translation sounds like it may not be the best. Translating is hard.

https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/tfvllp
 

MrMonkey

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here’s what I know:

-Russia is the clear aggressor

-there are hundreds of thousands of refugees and tens of thousands of deaths because of one man’s ego

And it’s all awful. And the human suffering could get substantially worse if the United States issues a no-fly zone or sends American troops into Ukraine.

Here’s what I I don’t know for sure (and neither do you):

-That Russia is intentionally murdering Ukrainian citizens.

-that the rapid expansion of NATO since the mid 90’s has contributed to the Russian invasion

:handshake:
Love the NATO expansion map you posted. Before Russia invaded Putin was pissed about Ukraine joining NATO. Maybe in Putin’s mind he said that’s it?

He gave plenty of warning what he intended to do and maybe the discussions about Ukraine joining/not joining weren’t to his liking. I highly doubt he’s killing intentionally civilians but our media is the spinner of spinners.

I mean we killed how many civilians in Iraq and that wasn’t even part of our country previously like a state we previously lost. And Biden and Co. screwed up by killing innocent civilans in Afghan and no one else In retaliation for the bombing at the airport.
 

MrMonkey

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Agree with Matty someone has to take him down! Whatever Putin’s intentions were he’s totally crossed every line possible. Agree with Davey Russia’s accuracy with their bombing sucks and makes you wonder?

Though their soldiers must not be into it because have you seen how many miles of Russian vehicles javelin missles have destroyed. They appear to want stop and per say killing their own people like in a Civil War. Very sad seeing the pics coming out.
 

Tron

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And then you have this wishy-washy thing going on where you are talking shit about Zelensky "calling shots", bringing up NATO expansion as a potential justification for this war, without just outright coming out and saying you support it. Playing both sides of the fence, I guess?

Weird hill you are standing on. But again, you do you.
I’m not being wishy washy. I have every right to call out Zelensky for telling the US that we’re not doing enough when in fact we’ve essentially done EVERYTHING BUT send our troops in and shoot down Russian aircraft with our own pilots.

You called NATO expansion a justification. I did not. Just shedding light on a possible explanation for the invasion.

Dave, one other thing….

Would you please stop with the name calling? You may not have noticed but you tend to do stuff like that in about 50% (rough estimate) of your WW2/C-19/politics posts.

Am I allowed to have an opposing view point without being on a “weird hill”?
 

Boner_18

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Love Matty and Dave being neoconservative interveners here. Dubya and Donny Rumsefeld would be proud.

Unclear if Tron is saying NATO expansion is the reason for Putins butthurt or blaming NATO expansion. The latter is like saying the jocks @ columbine high school deserved to be shot because they didn't let Dylan Klebold win in gym class.
 

Vegas Dave

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I’m not being wishy washy. I have every right to call out Zelensky for telling the US that we’re not doing enough when in fact we’ve essentially done EVERYTHING BUT send our troops in and shoot down Russian aircraft with our own pilots.
I love when people say "I have every right to XYZ", like I ever said you didn't have the right to feel a certain way or express your opinion. Yes, you have the right. I also have the right to strongly disagree with you, don't I? Cool.

I just think this is a terrible take. Yes, USA has done a lot to denounce the war with sanctions. Yes, USA has good reason not to send in troops/enforce a No Fly Zone.

But again, this is the president of a country getting overwhelmed with a brutal assault from a top three military power in the world. Sanctions won't end this war. Russia will eventually win, and countless lives, likely ncluding Zelensky's, will be lost.

The fact that you think Zelensky should then NOT ask for military help and take the official stance of "hey USA, thanks for at least doing what you could without risking retaliation, my country and I will get fucked and die now but we appreciate your circumstances" makes no sense to me.

I'm sure if China and Russia teamed up and were succeeding in brutally killing and taking over the USA, you'd want our president asking Europe for military help, not saying "hey ya'll keep yourselves safe, thanks for telling China you won't buy goods from them anymore."
You called NATO expansion a justification. I did not. Just shedding light on a possible explanation for the invasion.
Sorry that the term wishy washy seems to have triggered you, but this is exactly what I'm talking about. You post a big map of NATO expansion and say "makes you wonder if USA would feel threatened if roles were reversed". Then in response to nothing I said, you bring up as something you don't know "that the rapid expansion of NATO since the mid 90’s has contributed to the Russian invasion"

In this thread you have denounced the bloodshed, but not the war. You've criticized Zelensky for calling for more help for his people. You've given Putin the benefit of the doubt that he may not be killing innocents on purpose. You've said "USA does it too". You've celebrated Mr X's post about Russia/Ukraine being more complicated than media lets on. You've said your Russian GF has given you new perspective on the Russia/Ukraine feud.

BUT, you won't just come out and say Putin has a legitimate gripe. I infer from all of the above you are saying NATO was a justification; never said you claimed it was a good one, just that it was Putin's justification. But no, you were "just shedding light".

I mean I honestly don't know what the hell is going on or what you are trying to say. It just seems an awful lot like you want to play both sides of the fence (this war is terrible + Putin has his reasons though) and then get upset when I call you out on it? Okay.
Dave, one other thing….

Would you please stop with the name calling? You may not have noticed but you tend to do stuff like that in about 50% (rough estimate) of your WW2/C-19/politics posts.

Am I allowed to have an opposing view point without being on a “weird hill”?
That isn't name calling. I've never called you an idiot or anything else. I'd love for you to cite some examples of me actually calling you or others names, seeing as I do it 50% of the time should be awfully easy for you.

Saying you have a "wishy washy thing going on" isn't calling you a name. It's describing your actions in this thread. I am legitimately sorry if that hurt your feelings, that wasn't my intention. I stand by this description.

It's totally fine to say I don't know, I don't have an opinion, this is too complicated. But not if you want to pair that with arguments, opinionated posts, etc. I'll give you an example. ESPN just reported some transgender girl just won a race. That issue is way too complicated for me. I'm fully in support of trans rights. I don't think they should be banned from playing the sports that they love. But I also think it is entirely unfair to the rest of the field that they have a biological edge over. I have no solution ideas. I'm lost.

So if there were a thread about it, I wouldn't post an infograph on how trans athletes don't have a significantly higher win rate with a caption like "makes you think, doesn't it" and then when one of you responded say "oh I actually didn't say that, the whole thing is too complicated. I was just shedding light."

Yes, shockingly, you are "allowed" to have a different opinion than my own without it being a weird hill. But I'm also "allowed" to call it that (P.S. thats describing your stance as strange, not calling you names). This first amendment thing works both ways, it's super cool.
 
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Tron

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it’s 14 paragraphs, Dave

I’ll need a bit to respond to 14 paragraphs

the name calling was about the “weird hill” comment not the “wishy washy” one. I’ve definitely had my wishy washy moments in this thread. Apologies for that.

When I get time I’ll track down condescending posts you’ve made to steve, Casper and Mr. M. I’ll have to sift through the Casper Courtships and Corona thread.

:peace: