Is Free Will an Illusion?

[Vegas Dave]

I'm starting to wonder.

I do believe that we are genetically predisposed to certain things. Addiction habits, weight, intelligence, drive, etc.

The vast majority of people who diet, for example, gain it all back. Those that don't are a huge minority, and they were probably always genetically disposed to being a "normal" weight under the right circumstances, which finally came into place.

The logical next step is that we are all sort of pre-programed through our genetics, upbringing, life experiences, etc. That all the decisions we think we are making are really just happening on a biological level.

Interesting food for thought.

The clockwork universe: is free will an illusion?

The long read: A growing chorus of scientists and philosophers argue that free will does not exist. Could they be right?

www.theguardian.com

 

[CASPERWAIT$]

I think we are genetically predisposed to certain things. I also think that life experience and social norms contribute to how we adapt to these predispositions.

The 3 Martini lunches to the legalization to drugs, we have seen society condone behavior that is in essence harmful to us in the long run. I think the majority of people have genetic predispositions to addiction. It's how we "feed the inner beast" is what sets us apart.

 

[Matty]

I do think our general trajectories in life are loosely defined at birth, through genetics and socio-economic status, but one can pull and stretch that predefined orbit one way or the other through sheer effort (or complete lack thereof.)

I'm never gaining the weight back.

 

[Vegas Dave]

I do think our general trajectories in life are loosely defined at birth, through genetics and socio-economic status, but one can pull and stretch that predefined orbit one way or the other through sheer effort (or complete lack thereof.)

I'm never gaining the weight back.

I agree you aren't gaining it back. You clearly have a real passion for biking, which obviously was programmed in you somewhere!

I'd also argue that you aren't genetically disposed to obesity. Plenty of folks get a bit doughy due to sedentary lifestyles and unhealthy diets, but that's a different beast than how obese people are wired.

And yeah, I've always felt the same. That we have a certain set of circumstances that creates a ceiling and floor for us, and our effort/choices determine how much or how little we get out of it.

But I think that might just be an easy way of thinking about things. It's easier to judge people as lazy or commend hard work when maybe those drives are just genetic, too. I blame myself when I fail and take pride in my accomplishments, but really, it's possible I have far less control over them than I think.

 

[Vegas Dave]

I think we are genetically predisposed to certain things. I also think that life experience and social norms contribute to how we adapt to these predispositions.

The 3 Martini lunches to the legalization to drugs, we have seen society condone behavior that is in essence harmful to us in the long run. I think the majority of people have genetic predispositions to addiction. It's how we "feed the inner beast" is what sets us apart.

For sure.

That's the thing though. The same brain that is prone to the addiction is the same one trying to willpower or fight it off. It's easy to say "the strong win, the weak fail", but upon inspection thats kind of ridiculous. Either the addiction or the defense against it is programmed to be stronger. We may be predetermined to succeed or fail in our battles.

 

[Matty]

I'd also argue that you aren't genetically disposed to obesity. Plenty of folks get a bit doughy due to sedentary lifestyles and unhealthy diets, but that's a different beast than how obese people are wired.

Plenty of folks don't get doughy despite sedentary lifestyles and unhealthy diets.

My 23andme test revealed that I'm "predisposed to weigh more than average".

I ballooned almost overnight right after high school (grade 11 in QC.) I was a very skinny 18yo and a suddenly fat 20yo. Always ate the same garbage.

But yeah there was some amount of defeatism in my attitude towards health. I looked at my dad (who's been obese all his adult life) and thought that was my destiny. Truth is, I may be disposed to weigh more but it doesnt take that much work to tweak my programming, so to speak.

 

[Vegas Dave]

Plenty of folks don't get doughy despite sedentary lifestyles and unhealthy diets.

My 23andme test revealed that I'm "predisposed to weigh more than average".

I ballooned almost overnight right after high school (grade 11 in QC.) I was a very skinny 18yo and a suddenly fat 20yo. Always ate the same garbage.

But yeah there was some amount of defeatism in my attitude towards health. I looked at my dad (who's been obese all his adult life) and thought that was my destiny. Truth is, I may be disposed to weigh more but it doesnt take that much work to tweak my programming, so to speak.

Yep, some folks don't put on anything. Others put on a little. Others put on alot. Others put on A LOT.

There is no doubt that you are making a hell of an effort. The debate simply stems from where that effort is coming from. Is it really a choice? You seem so set on this path now, could you really choose to get off of it?

 

[Matty]

Yeah no. I have trouble taking a day off right now.

A big part of it is: I'm an addict. I go balls out when discovering something, and that ravenous appetite for learning and progressing typically lasts several months to a couple years. Then I move on to something else, but there usually remains a base level of interest. For example, I never totally stopped cubing, and I doubt I ever will, but I'm done spending 45 mins a day on it.

Same with guitar. I spent a ton of time on it in the mid 90's. I don't play a lot these days which I'm ashamed to admit to my customers. (I earn most of my income through guitar-related work - I'm just not as passionate about it as one might think.)

The same thing will happen with cycling I suppose, although I was pretty into it as a kid, and motorcycling is/was a lazy, adult version of it.

But this is separate from the weight loss thing. I lost most of the weight prior to getting on a bike. I can keep the weight off even if I lose the ability to exercise tomorrow. These calorie tracking apps ain't goin' nowhere. I'm a fairly messy and disorganized person, but these apps are so easy to use that they allow me to reach the threshold of self-discipline required to maintain a healthy weight.

Is any of it a real choice? I dunno. I think if I could do a science experiment and groundhog-day my whole life over and over again and tally the results, I would end up developing roughly the same interests and going through the same phases, just in a different order? Which might branch out into totally different things? Probably not. I think with every roll of the dice, my crippling social anxiety and general lack of self-awereness throughout my teens and 20's means I always end up a late bloomer.

I think I believe in free will as a sort of game controller that allows you to decide on your precise path through the side-scrolling world that is your life.

 

[CASPERWAIT$]

When I started to lose my weight, it definitely became an addiction thing. You begin to take that focus you put into your vices into something productive and its a great feeling. Scary thing is that all it takes is a bad run or moment, and you fall off track. Not saying you will @Matty . You seem a lot more level headed than me for instance. In general though, many addicts do.

 

[Tron]

Both of my parents were 30-50 pounds overweight when they were at the age I’m currently at now

Dave, did your point go flying over my head ?

 

[Vegas Dave]

Both of my parents were 30-50 pounds overweight when they were at the age I’m currently at now

Dave, did your point go flying over my head ?

Yes, it seems it may have haha. But congrats on being fitter than your parents were!

 

[reno cool]

"free will" can coexist with such things as luck or limits of environment. As a philosophical question it is metaphysical nonsense

But if you asking if people are born with factors that shape other factors, that are influenced by upbringing, experience, and luck, that lead them to a certain road, then sure

 

[Vegas Dave]

This isn't a thread about weight. It's about the illusion of choice.

Let's say you are a successful lawyer. Most would agree the lawyer is intelligent, worked hard. But his genetics were responsible for his intelligence. And, many in the scientific and philosophical communities are now hypothesizing, his genetics are responsible for that "drive" or "effort" as well.

Society perceives work ethic as a choice. People choose to be lazy or hard working. We also perceive, say, criminal behavior to be a choice. Free will is all about the many choices we can and do make every day.

But is it a choice, really? Do we actively make the choice to be lazy or the choice to be hard working? Aren't these just byproducts of our brain (genetics, upbringing, etc)?

 

[reno cool]

This isn't a thread about weight. It's about the illusion of choice.

Let's say you are a successful lawyer. Most would agree the lawyer is intelligent, worked hard. But his genetics were responsible for his intelligence. And, many in the scientific and philosophical communities are now hypothesizing, his genetics are responsible for that "drive" or "effort" as well.

Society perceives work ethic as a choice. People choose to be lazy or hard working. We also perceive, say, criminal behavior to be a choice. Free will is all about the many choices we can and do make every day.

But is it a choice, really? Do we actively make the choice to be lazy or the choice to be hard working? Aren't these just byproducts of our brain (genetics, upbringing, etc)?

yes, to all three. think about it brother

 

[Vegas Dave]

yes, to all three. think about it brother

...it can't be all three as I'm phrasing the question, Reno.

If you have free will than your choices are not merely byproducts of your brain. There is some conscious "you" that actively makes decisions big and small every day, obviously pulling from your intellect/experiences etc.

If choices are already made for you as a byproduct of your brain based on your intellect/experiences etc., then you don't have free will.

 

[reno cool]

yes, this is a very old philosophical exercise. ...but there's nothing to it. Free will does not mean absence of other factors. Or if it does, the term becomes meaningless.
If you define free will as acting on no factors at all, then you're left with acting completely randomly. And that again is hardly will.

 

[Vegas Dave]

Who is saying that free will is the absence of other factors? I literally said "there is some conscious "you" that actively makes decisions big and small every day, obviously pulling from your intellect/experiences etc."

 

[Boner_18]

I could cosign on a min and max floor theory. But I'd guess that the range is much wider than most believe or achieve (and thus we have more free will than we believe/realize).